Watch for information from our Sunday Chats. Individual card information as well as how they group.
RWS: Val, Sufi, Mep
Paulina Tarot: Annie
Thoth: Paul
Shining Tribe: Web
Romani: Disa
Bruegel: Mib
Druid Craft: Uruviel (Jimi)
Radiant RW: Autumnmist (Sonnie)
Keyword or short meaning?
Val: Silence
Disa: power
Val: Intuition
Uruviel: inner wisdom
Val: Uncommon knowledge (from Fenestra Tarot LWB)
Web: nice Val!
paul: intuition
Autumnmist: intensity
paul: hunch and wait and see
mep: secrets, unconscious, hidden knowledge, initiation
Autumnmist: reserve
Web: For the STT it's: To the center RWS: Intuitivness
Ann: keeper of knowledge
Val: Libraries - they're silent & all kinds of knowledge is "hidden" among the shelves
mep: great, Val!
Val: :D
Ann: good - i like that
Web: yeppers
paul: the priestess looks like she's about to conduct an orchestra, Ta Da!
Disa: the Druidcraft HP is my fave
Web: I fixed the date and title of the card if you refresh your screen ;)
sonnie: All knowing in everything, thinker, analyser, seer but remains calm collected and intuiging
Web: actually I don't think there is a single one I don't like in this group
Web: WB Paul and Welcome Mib :)
mep: Agree, Web - The Druidcraft is a little eerie, but I still like it
Disa: hiya sufi
Web: I even like the Bruegel :)
Web: lol
Web: Hey Sufi
Disa: eerie huh? I look just like that when I wake up mep :)
mib_dmytcr: Good Morning Everyone! You wouldn't believe how beautiful the weather is today.
Uruviel: Hi, Sufi
Whirling_Sufi: Morning all-I'm late!
Uruviel: Hi, mib
mep: Disa! LOL! Bruegel looks like the woman who invented the "beehive" hairdo!
Autumnmist: oops
Val: lol Web - I was thinking the same about Brugel. Finally, a Bruegel card that doesn't make me scratch my head, "Huh?"
Disa: ehat's going on with the Brugals shoes?
mep: she's got bees in her bonnet and japanese wooden sandals on her feet!
mib_dmytcr: She has huge feet doesn't she! Think her male side has sunk itself into those sandals.
Disa: oh she DOES have a bee in her bonnet
Val: I think bees are an ancient symbol of the Goddess
mep: well, as my dad used to say about me, mib, I would have been a lot taller if God hadn't turned so much under for foundation. I think Bruegel's HP is my long-lost sister - ha!
mep: i mean, how many people do you know who can barely claim 5' 2" yet wear a size 9 1/2 shoe???
Whirling_Sufi: Oh, yes, Disa, I was about to say that-bees in her bonnet!
mib_dmytcr: lol Mep.
Disa: yep big feet all about being grounded yep
mep: ha!
Disa: is why I love my Druidcraft
Disa: big bare feet
Val: They're ya go, mep. You're VERY grounded :D
Whirling_Sufi: I love the Druidcraft whhich reminds me of The World Spirit Tarot Priestess. The Rider is too tame and serene for me.
mib_dmytcr: Hey Mep! Think you're more my Sister especially now that my feet have morphed into an 11W!!! lol
mep: yes - almost all of the DC people have big bare feet. 11? WOW, Phyllis!
Val: That's what I love about RWS, Sufi. She's so serene
Web: yes relaxed
Whirling_Sufi: Hi, Ann!
mep: Yes, I love RWS too - she seems inscrutable. (word of the day)
Disa: oops brb
Whirling_Sufi: My doctor looks like her! LOL
mep: serenity is a good trait in a doctor!
Whirling_Sufi: It sure is, especially with a non-compliant like me!
Web: ... cryptic: of an obscure nature; "the new insurance policy is written without cryptic or mysterious terms"; "a deep dark secret"; "the inscrutable ...
mib_dmytcr: brb
Whirling_Sufi: I agree about her having a fine quality but I like to see behind the veil upfront. peraps
Val: verb: make undecipherable or imperceptible by obscuring or concealing
Web: hahaha
Web: well that you do yourself Sufi
Val: :D
Web: :D
Web: Do you tend to see the HP as sexual or virginal? Why?
mep: hmmm - never really thought about it. I would say sexual, in that she is the keeper of secrets, and how can you keep a secret if you don't know about everything?
Val: Virginal, as in "belonging to no man"
Web: Hi AmberFox Welcome to Chat
AmberFox: Hiya everyone
Uruviel: Hi, AmberFox
Val: Hello AmberFox!
mep: But I think, while "knowing" she probably is celebate.
Whirling_Sufi: More sexual, I think, even though in some decks she looks virginal
mep: by choice
mep: although, i dunno - those cut-open pomegranates are certainly suggestive, aren't they?
Whirling_Sufi: That grandma doesn't seem virginal to me! LOL!
Val: In one of Greer's books, she mentions the original definition of 'virgin' as "belonging to no man"
Web: I've read quite a few meanings that suggest she is virginal, and I've always seen her as sexual, so thought I'd throw that out there
AmberFox: I think she is the goddess
Web: but yes to the virginal - belonging to no man, but a sexual creature
AmberFox: maiden mother crone
paul: sexual is a blind, virgin is an aspect of her self=completeness, devotion to the unseen.
Uruviel: I like your explanation, Val. :)
AmberFox: all knowing, giver of life
Uruviel: Oh...that's good, Paul... :)
Web: um the all knowing part yes, the giver of life i'd relate more to the Empress
AmberFox: in some cards that is, like in the druidcraft one she is a distributer of natural powers
Whirling_Sufi: I like that, too, Val, that's how I feel strongly myself, thogh not a HP!
Web: blind in what way paul
Val: I wish I could remember which book that came from. I absolutely that definition.
Val: absolutely love*
paul: if the high priestess is the maiden and the Empress the mother, where is the crone?
AmberFox: She knows the secrets of the universe
Whirling_Sufi: in the Buckland deck, Paul-LOL!
Val: Great question, Paul!
Uruviel: lol, Sufi.
mep: Re the "giver of life." Per Thomson (Pix from the Heart), the pomegranate represents: "one creative source becoming many, inasmuch as its seed, its blood-red juice, and its shaper symbolize fertility and new possibilities." Of course, I think that's more metaphorical fertility, than actual physical fertility.
Web: yes hidden in the Moon
AmberFox: the second card that we are discussing, romani tarot, the grandmother figure with the baby, I think she is a crone representative
Web: mep I'm sure it can be, I just don't tend the HP in that direction personally
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, I do, too Amber!
Disa: bk now sorry
Web: WB
Disa: ty
paul: in the Romany deck I would agree. But let's say in the rider Waite Smith, where with the crone be?
mep: I actually see the HP (in any deck) as a woman in all three phases - maiden, mother, AND crone. That is part of her being all-knowing, and keeping the secrets of all three phases. Even her crown (RWS) shows three phases of the moon...
mep: integration
mep: reconciliation
AmberFox: yes mep absolutely
Whirling_Sufi: In her wisdom, as I see it, Paul, even though she looks young.
Web: Val the virgin thing, I know I've heard in relation to the vestal virgins in that they were sexual, but not belonging to any man. An unmarried woman who dedicated herself to the temple.
paul: That crown is a good hint!
Web: yes agree
Whirling_Sufi: Yes!
Val: Web, seems I've read that (vestal virgins) somewhere, too
Val: May have been in the same Greer book
Web: lol could be :)
Web: On the Romani the baby almost seems like a doll
Disa: I'm not sure how the hp would have such intuitive wisdom and power- know how to use it and still be considered the maiden?
Web: it's kinda at an odd angle, and stiff
mep: Virginity, to me, equates with innocence and naivete. And I don't think the HP is innocent, and she sure as heck isn't naive!
Uruviel: Could be back in school when we studied mythology or something like that, Val... That's when I learned about vestal virgins (must have been college...doubt they'd have let us talk aboutt hat in public school ;)
Disa: umm relating to pomegranites- I just read yesterday that pomegranite juice acts as a natural viagra?
Web: LOL! Good to know Disa!
Disa: I'll let ya know if it's true ;)
Val: LOL Disa
mep: overshare!
mep: :D
Whirling_Sufi: Hey, Disa! Great news! LOL
Web: You know it might be the virgin stuff comes from the original title to the card of Papesse
mep: figures - the Church WOULD equate an "honorable woman" to virginity.
mep: hmmmph
Val: Could be, Web. Hadn't thought of that
Disa: hmm
Web: well at least the men are to be as well ;)
mep: true.
paul: now I know why I had pomegranate juice to my iced tea all the time!
Disa: wha
Whirling_Sufi: LOL!
Web: hahahahaha!
Disa: ha
mep: Well, Paul - does it work? hahahahaaha!
paul: does anybody take the Pope Joan story seriously?
Disa: well it's related to the HP and her pomegranites
Web: Well I don't dis-believe it
mep: who knows?
Disa: I don't know the pope joan story
Web: not sure if I take it completely seriously
Uruviel: I wouldn't suppose that all virgins *must* be naive...that's a stereotype of virgin, yes...but I don't believe it to be so in all cases.
Val: Same here - what Web said
Web: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan
Whirling_Sufi: I read a great fictional account of it and I still can't see it as real.
Uruviel: This woman is spiritutally gifted. She is wise beyond her years.
mep: i see her as ageless
Web: yesh! totally agree
paul: It same medieval myth that a woman disguised as a monk on pilgrimage, became noted for her piety and scholarship and was elected pope, while she was pregnant with their lovers child. She gives birth during the papal procession
Disa: thx web
Web: I could see it in the old sense of Virgin, not the current definition of virgin.
mib_dmytcr: But Paul, when she was found out, didn't they execute her and her child?
Whirling_Sufi: Thomson writes of another story of Abbess Manfreda elected to be Pope and later burned at the stake.
Disa: yikes
Disa: did they think she was a witch
Web: they burned a lot of people you didn't have to be a witch to be burned
paul: yes in some versions of the story, I like the Greek version where she somehow manages to get away and live happily ever after with her lover and child
Whirling_Sufi: She had been considered a female John the Baptistand would pave the way for a female savior.
Web: but then again if you disagreed with the church you were a witch ;)
AmberFox: is this about joan of arc?
Web: no Pope Joan
Whirling_Sufi: No, Abbess Manfreda.
Disa: well if that's all it takes to be a witch then ;)
Web: was going to say that ;)
Whirling_Sufi: LOL!
Web: lol
Web: What is the shadow side of this card? What might be an excess?
paul: hey if you're too pretty, or you're too ugly, or somebody just don't like you, they'll accuse you of being a witch
Whirling_Sufi: Too controlling!
Disa: hmm I could see becoming hermit like in your knowlege and power
Web: I could see this card as indicate someone who can't leave their house... can't remember the name for it
Disa: agoraphobic?
mep: obsession over what one doesn't know (and can't know, at the current time), to the exclusion of dealing with reality
Whirling_Sufi: agorphobia
Web: yesh!
Val: Suppressing intuition
Whirling_Sufi: agora
mib_dmytcr: Too much isolation...Closing off to what's going on in the outside world. Lack of compassion.
Web: nice mep
paul: the Thoth reversal of the priestess, listen to yourself you're missing something important
mep: Shadow side could also be obsession with what you CAN'T know, to the exclusion of doing something worthwhile with what you DO know
Web: living inside a fantasy world
mep: didn't mean to repeat myself...technical "hiccups!" My first post didn't show up until I posted the second one.
mep: ???
Web: Not being willing to look inside. Everything is wonderful. (Fantasy World)
Web: Nice mep
mep: Also, not being WILLING to discover what you don't see readily...another version of the "shadow" side
mep: right - what web said!
paul: but fantasy can be one of the ways that we connect with intuition,
Web: The HP is one of my fav Thoth cards
Web: I love the dimension of it
Uruviel: agoraphobia? Irrational fear of leaving the house?
Val: "Ignorance is bliss" (staying in a Fanstacy World)
Web: yep agree Paul
Web: it's when you live there
mib_dmytcr: I don't really understand the HP...Sort of like she's Jesus, unreachable on the human level.
Web: the opposite of not looking in is only living in there
Disa: we have to stay balanced though between fantasy and reality- it ain't always easy
mep: the thoth seems to imply there may be danger in delving into one's unconscious, one's intuition. But she offers the chance, anyway
Web: either way can be excessive
paul: actually I think she's very accessible if you accept her on her terms
Web: you do have to climb over some spiky stuff
Val: As a keeper of Hiffen Knowledge - abusing that knowledge
mep: Jimi - agoraphobia also implies not wanting to interact with others in the "real" world.
Val: Oops! *Hidden Knowledge
Web: take a leap and the net will catch ya :)
paul: does anybody have a take on the camel?
Whirling_Sufi: I was wondering, Val-Hahaha!
mib_dmytcr: Or the Keeper of Forbidden Knowledge Val!
paul: does this mean the priestess likes to smoke unfiltered cigarettes?
Web: Like the Magician's tools, to me it indicates we have what we need
Web: lol!
Val: Gimel (camel) - never quite understood that one
Whirling_Sufi: Oh God, Paul!
mep: I find it very telling that the veil behind the RWS HP doesn't QUITE cover up what is behind it. We are given a tantalizing peek around the edges, at what lies beyond. But we have to pass by the HP and through the gateway of dark and light (the 2 pillars) to actually get there.
mib_dmytcr: Paul lol - Camels?
Web: we can go the distance,
paul: Does of the camel, you got it Val!
Web: I know it's actually related to the Hebrew letter assigned to the card
Val: Right, Gimel is the Hebrew letter, meaning 'camel'
Disa: camels store water
Disa: umm
Disa: water intuition?
mep: and this is a WHITE camel - any significance to that???
mep: Well, the HP is a water card.
Whirling_Sufi: I like that iea of going the distance-empowering!
Val: White camel? Never heard that one
Whirling_Sufi: idea
mib_dmytcr: And from what I've heard of camels, they're a nasty animal...
paul: so can somebody give me the gist of Gimel?
mep: no - i mean the camel on the Thoth HP card is a white camel.
Val: Oh! Duh, Val
Web: Our Sages teach that the gimel symbolizes a rich man running after a poor man, the dalet, to give him charity. The word gimel is derived from the word gemul, which in Hebrew means both the giving of reward as well as the giving of punishment. In Torah, both reward and punishment have the same ultimate aim the rectification of the soul to merit to receive God's light to the fullest extent.
Uruviel: agoraphobia...it's a phobia or panic disorder not merely not wanting to...I don't think I would generally see that in this card, although it might lead one to think of that in specific circumstances.
Disa: purity
paul: is that something like the white buffalo, of American Indian lore?
Web: Agree Uruviel, I'm not saying they want to
mep: great info, Web!
paul: While it sounds like we're in the underworld with the weighing of the souls of Osiris, Web.
Web: I'm saying I could see this card indicating that disorder
mep: or a tendency towards it, if one is not careful
Disa: reversed web, or the shadow side of the card do you mean?
Web: yes!
Web: I don't do reversals per say so yes the shadow side
Web: http://www.inner.org/hebleter/gimmel.htm <~~ where I got it from
Autumnmist: Gimel is also the path that connects Tiphareth and Kether...it's a means of connecting to godhead
Whirling_Sufi: Well, I don't see that inthe Druidcraft or the World Spirit! There is a wildness and very strong part of nature in both
Whirling_Sufi: referring to agoraphobia
Web: I don't necessarily either
paul: I've been reading a 1947 noir roman, called Nightmare Alley, it has 22 chapters, each one a different major Arcana card, and each chapter can be read, From the point of view of the major Arcana, got this hint from Mary Greer.
Whirling_Sufi: Hmm! Must get that book, Paul-sounds fascinating.
paul: Anyway the high priestess, in that story deals with a boy losing his virginity to an older woman
Web: kewl!
Web: that sounds very interesting
paul: instead of the Carnival, there is a good movie by the same name,
Disa: it's the wildness of the HP that makes me feel she's going on her primal instints, her intutive nature
paul: no one has formally decided that perhaps one can get some interesting meanings about the major Arcana from reading these chapters as commentaries on the cards
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, Disa-I agree!
mep: "Nightmare Alley" was also produced as a film in 1947, with Tyrone Power and Joan Blondell.
Web: I tend to see the HP as very positive and spiritually invigorating
mep: Available on Netflix.
paul: that's right mep
Web: an nobody has to agree with me :) I just say what I see if it don't work for ya, leave it behind :D
mep: good movie, but since I haven't read the book, I don't know if it follows it closely or not
Disa: me too web, getting us in touch with ourselves,
paul: interesting flick, the book of course has more substance,
Whirling_Sufi: Oh, I agree, I connect with her readily even though I prefer some images over others.
mep: I really connect with the HP card. Sometimes, in odd moments, a feeling will come over me VERY STRONG that all I have to do to know everything I want to know is to reach out and push the veil aside....
Web: Nightmare alley / William Lindsay Gresham
paul: back to the high priestess, can one see this as a initiation of a pro-sexual life?
Web: is that the book?
Uruviel: I agree, Web...very positive and spiritually invigorating...I like that phrasing :)
Val: Yes, Web, that's the book
Web: Yes I think so Paul
mep: yes - Gresham is given writing credits for the film (not the screenplay, but the story)
Web: kewl I can get it through the library :)
Web: I think it's pro-sexual in a way that is empowering
mep: well, I see this as initiation, but I don't know that it has anything to do with sexuality or a pro-sexual life.
paul: he was a sad sack guy who drank too much and beat his wife, she left him moved to England and Married CS Lewis
mep: Well THAT was definitely a change!
Whirling_Sufi: Oh, is that the guy?
Disa: I wasn't sure if I saw it as initiation- I felt she already knows this stuff?
Web: but would tend to see the Empress as more about Sex the sex in the High Priestess is about honoring yourself, desire, and needs
mep: from a drunk wife-beater to CS Lewis!
mib_dmytcr: HP is for me anyway, a slippery image. One minute I can hook into the message she brings, the next draw a big time blank. She just might play the part of Trickster, makes you work hard to dig out what you need to know..
mep: yes, Web - I agree.
Whirling_Sufi: But she does initiate others!
mep: yes, sufi
mep: or allows them to initiate themselves.
Web: yep
mep: she is the KEEPER of secrets, not the REVEALER. But she offers a way you can discover them.
paul: I think this trickster idea as something to ponder
mep: The scroll on her lap, for instance....
mep: "Rota tarot orat tora ator.
Disa: that's true sufi
Uruviel: Sex...no sex...that's not what I see and feel when I look at the high priestess...It's about the inner, spiritual, intuition...with or without sex...to me, the card is more spiritual in nature as opposed to more sexual in nature. But that's me. Y'all can jazz 'er up all you like. ;)
mep: i agree, Jimi
Whirling_Sufi: LOL, Jimi!
Web: I totally agree with you Jimi
mep: actually, except for her moon connections (very feminine), I see the HP as more a-sexual than anything else in this regard
paul: normally I wouldn't see the high priestess as a let's go out and get laid card
Disa: but the power of ones own sexual nature is something to be in tune with
Web: LOL!
paul: rather I'd say wait until the timing is right
mep: some say that good sex transcends human consciousness, and that is what the HP is all about!
Web: no me either it was just something I had recently read, and wondered how others thought about it
paul: won't argue that, mep!
Uruviel: Well, that's not the impression y'all were giving me with the discussion...LOL...
Disa: yep I see that mep
Web: lol well ya never know how the discussions going to go ;)
mep: oh - we're just all hot and bothered, Jimi! HA!:D
Disa: ha
Web: What is the HP asking you to bring into your life? What do you need more of?
Uruviel: Hmmmm...I wonder what mep will do after chat. ;)
paul: really should we be looking behind the veil?
Disa: need more time to be aware of my own nature
mep: more trust in "knowing without knowing." I mean, somethings you just KNOW. It's really not so hard. I believe we come to this life knowing EVERYTHING, and then as we grow up we gradually forget it all and have to rediscover it.
Disa: yes paul we should be looking cause we're drawn to do so
Web: Spirit, ritual, inner journey, path work, dreams.
Val: bring into your life - silence
Web: Yes, if you are willing and ready but not if you JUST want to know whats back there
mep: oh yes, we should look behind the veil. That veil is an illusion - and more - a CHALLENGE to get back to one's natural state of "knowing," of elightenment, of connection to all.
Disa: some aren't drawn to the veil, are they afraid or just don't are or just unawre
Whirling_Sufi: Well, sometimes I feel like howling at the moon with the HP
paul: dreams are a classic veil, when we get the priestess is the saying go into hibernation and pay attention to your dreams?
Web: the HP is related to the Moon, and therefore to me there is a darkness inherent in parting the veil
Disa: me too sufi and sometimes I do
mep: not the hibernation part, but pay attention to your dreams, yes
Whirling_Sufi: She may be inviting others to the world of dreams
Uruviel: She invites me to bring more of my inner wisdom to the forefront...to explore deeply...everything I need to know...everything I need to use...it's all there...behind the veil...peeking out and calling me.
mep: yes, Jimi!
paul: Does the high priestess give a sense of how to interpret our dreams?
Web: I think she tells us we can
mep: i would say if anything, she tells us to just relax into the process...it will come.
Web: the how she leaves to you
paul: Maybe that scroll is a dream journal?
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, she is definitely calling, but I think the Rider HP needs one to go behind the veil.
mep: In the Star Trek "Insurrection" movie, one of the characters says, "It took us a long time to learn that it doens't take a long time to learn." I always think of that with the HP card.
Web: nice paul
Web: kewl mep, I like that
paul: Good point
Web: The Paulina Tarot is very dreamy
mep: I believe that knowing what is behind the veil is our NATURAL state, but we've moved away from that.
Disa: I lov the Paulina
Disa: me too mep
mep: Yes, VERY dream-state-ish...the Paulina
Web: I'm not familiar with the deck, so don't know if all the cards have that feel or not
Whirling_Sufi: Yes!
paul: anybody got a take on the high priestess as the number two?
Disa: I don't feel the RWS is in tune with her own natural state, but rather the state of what she's been told to be in tune with- I dunno
Web: it has bees too!
mib_dmytcr: I think HP's secret message is that you stay in touch with your Innocence.
Disa: they do all ave that feel web
Uruviel: I think you're right about her leading us to listen and interpret dreams since dreams often give messages about what is going on within or concern something within us. Good point.
Val: Looks like there's bees on the Paulina, too (Goddess symbol)
Web: Interesting mib!
mep: well, i like the Roman Numeral Two in conjunction with the two pillars...graphically, it looks like a gateway, which the pillars represent.,
Web: gmta Val :)
Val: lol Web Indeed!
Disa: that makes sense mib,
mep: Also, there is the idea of duality, light and dark, knowing and not-knowing, conscious and unconscious, etc.
mib_dmytcr: It's a safety net Web whenever you have to take the "Fall" into that Forbidden Knowledge.
Web: Innocence here would be different then the innocence of the Fool imho
Whirling_Sufi: Rachel Pollack says tame and wild, as well
Disa: I just don't get that HP's are all that innocent
mep: Not so much innocence, as acceptance.
mep: yes, sufi
Web: opposites are inherent in this card imho
Disa: yep
mep: spoken and unspoken, too
mep: inner and outer
Whirling_Sufi: Me either, Disa. I think she can challenge us about that, though
Autumnmist: How about purity instead of innocence
Web: black/white what you see what is hidden
Disa: yes purity- true nature- the way we should be
mep: simplicity instead of innocence...a simple state of knowing
Web: um interesting question Autumn
Disa: or rather the way we came here being
Val: #2 = cooperation / HP = Intuition - Cooperation with intuition = Wisdom (how's that, Paul?)
paul: Knowledge is ignorance, ignorance knowledge, intuition is liberation, liberation is fantasy,
Autumnmist: exactly
Disa: I do think HP has pure intentions
Web: purity again would depend on the definition for me
Disa: I agree web
mep: i don't think she has any intentions at all....she just IS
Autumnmist: Unadulturated
mep: what she is
Web: lol good one Paul
Whirling_Sufi: I see her as very complex so simplicity is somethingI need to think about
Web: simple/complex
mib_dmytcr: There's the duality! The human condition between Innocence and Experience, and factoring in Free Will...Die if you do, die if you don't.
mep: and don't if you die! HA!
mib_dmytcr: lol
Web: !
Whirling_Sufi: LOL!
Disa: even if she doesn't have the experience, she still has knowledge of the experience
mep: YES!
mep: great point, Disa!
Whirling_Sufi: Yes!
Disa: hhaha
Uruviel: Look at this HP...in the Legacy...she's fabulous! http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/legacy-divine/
Web: The HP is a 2 how does that add to your meaning or understanding of the card?
Web: What layer does being a two add?
mep: well, i already said that above - duality...knowing/not-knowing, etc.
Disa: yeah duality
Disa: bringing 2 sides together
Whirling_Sufi: Wow! Jimi-she is!
mep: front/back, awake/asleep, here/there,
Disa: all the legacy cards are fabulous IMO
mep: and the Legacy HP shows an owl - there's your "wisdom"
mib_dmytcr: Jimi, she's magnificent. But I wonder why are her eyes so dead looking?
Whirling_Sufi: choices
mep: perhaps she is in a dream-state, a trance
Disa: yes trance eyes, like Druidcraft maybe
Whirling_Sufi: Are those veils over here eyes, something is covering at least under them
Disa: (or hers might be closed)
paul: to is an evil number, according to the Hermeticist
mep: druidcraft looks like she is invoking something; Legacy looks like she's OFFERING something
Web: For me a 2 is about duality as well. Flexibility, and being able to be in both worlds,
Disa: anything enlightening must be evil ;)
mep: being IN the world, without being OF the world, Web?
Uruviel: Maybe like mep says...maybe trance or dream...she's not seeing *this* world as we see it...she sees deeper...inner...spiritual..maybe???
Val: I like that, Web! "...being in both worlds"
Web: yes and no ;)
mib_dmytcr: Seems to me you can only visit HP's domain for a split second, or there's threat of losing your Soul to her realm.
mep: or finding it, mib!
Disa: unless you ARE the HP
Web: she can step forward, or move back
paul: there are two kinds of people the world, those who see that there are two kinds of people in the world, and those who do not.
mep: lol, paul
mib_dmytcr: And if you do, refusing to leave. It could be a trap Mep!
Disa: hmmm
Whirling_Sufi: LOL, Paul
Val: lol Paul
Web: the Mythic shows someone who can live with the living or the dead
Disa: some just see the wrong 2
Whirling_Sufi: Yay, Disa unless you ARE!
Disa: their division is wrong I mean
mep: Yes - Persephone....had to revisit Hades once a year.
Autumnmist: Gotta go. Have a great weeks guys :)
Disa: doh
mep: bye Autumn!
Whirling_Sufi: Oh, heavens, me , too. Thank you Web and everyone-great chat!
Val: Ah, Persephone - wasn't getting the 'living with the dead' until you mentioned that, mep (Mythic)
***Uruviel whispers...that's one of my favorite parting quotes...the one that popped up for Autumnmist. hehehe
Web: She is the card of the psychic medium she can speak to the dead or hear the whispers of those no longer living on this plain.
paul: all for eating a couple of pomegranate seeds
Uruviel: Bye, Sufi...
Disa: ha
mep: don't see a parting quote (I'm not in Ice Chat) - what was it, Jimi?
mep: bye, Sufi!
Web: another women punished for what she ate
Uruviel: "if at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you."
mib_dmytcr: Or putting a splash of it in your morning pudding Paul.lol
Uruviel: hehehe
mep: LOL, Web!
mep: ha!
Val: ( "If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you" ) <-- Autumn's parting quote
Disa: haha
Web: I see them and I'm not in ice chat
paul: I like my cave!
mep: hmmmm - weird!
Uruviel: sufi's was good, too (He who laughs last, thinks slowest." hahahaha
mep: Did you come in through the TFL site, Web?
Disa: yeah sufis is true- I see it at work all day long
Web: no i'm in pidgin
mep: oh
mep: that 'splains it!
Uruviel: Sorry...I'll behave now. :$
Web: actually I forgot to open Ice Chat :O
paul: well I see that we have not exhausted the mysteries of the high priestess and I will have to return to her alter many times to discover what she's really about
mep: you always behave, Jimi - just sometimes you behave badly! LOL!
Web: >:o
Uruviel: :o
Web: yes agree Paul
Disa: ha
Web: How might you use this card as a point of meditation or focus card?
Val: Meditative - What do I don't know that I know?
Web: To enter the realm of dreams.
Web: nice Val
Val: :D
Disa: right val- I was wondering how to phrase that ;)
paul: so I guess it's time to say sayonara, and don't be a stranger, I'm taken off, catching a few rays, and a little snooze, and back to reading a Nightmare Alley.
mib_dmytcr: Paul, watch out for those floating stray promegranate seeds! Bop you on the head when you least expect it. lol
mep: have a great day, Paul
Web: Enjoy Paul! (R)
mep: Meditative....how can I see what I don't see?
Val: See ya Wednesday morning, Paul! Have a great day!
Uruviel: Mine was similar to Val's...walk in and ask her, "What do I know deep within that I need to be consciously aware of?
Uruviel: Bye, Paul.
Web: As a focus I'd use it to remind me that I am a spiritual being
paul: you all too!
mep: The palms on the veil (RWS) signify opening the third eye, so another meditative use for this would be to open intuition
Web: yes agreed mep
Web: to open up the psyche
mib_dmytcr: Open up the psyche to what?
mep: to whatever!
Uruviel: The DruidCraft would inspire me to reach up, open myself, and receive what I'm given...I could just sit and receive...
Web: receiving
Val: Reminds me of a meditation I do "Look into the silence & observe..."
mib_dmytcr: Slippery Mep, real slippery! lol
Web: the DC reminds me of drawing down the moon
Web: becoming the goddess
mep: cool, Val...like THe Power of Silence exercises from the RS pre-class!
Uruviel: That's what she's doing, according to the book.
Val: Oh! It does look like drawing down the moon!
mep: yes, Web - re DC
Disa: ;)
Val: Yes, mep, that class made me think of this meditation, too
mep: good reminder...I haven't worked with any of that information / exercise since the RS...need to get back to it. WANT to.
Web: Astrological correspondence is the Moon, Hebrew letter is Gimel, Path on the ToL is Kether to Tipheret. Any other correspondences you use? How does this add to your card?
Uruviel: But since I don't know about drawing down the moon...it reminded me of when I went to a charismatic church and you would lift your hands to receive whatever message God meant for you to have...
mep: Elementally - water. Emotion, intuition.
mep: flow
Uruviel: That's what I noticed in the Legacy HP...she's in water...
mep: i like the way the RWS HP's gown is kind of "dissolving" into water around her ankles.
mib_dmytcr: Or during Mass, the Lord's Prayer is said while opening the arms to receive the message or holy blessing.
Uruviel: Right...:)
Val: Can you see the kitty "hidden" in her gown? (RWS)
mep: not to mention the elevation of the Host
Val: Just over the cressent moon
mep: kind of, Val...I'm looking at the Giant version, though, and that actually makes the illusion of the cat less apparent.
Web: no Val I haven't seen that!
Disa: I don't see a kitty or water at her feet?
Web: never really looked or heard that
Val: Just above the cressent moon at her feet, Disa
mep: the way her gown becomes all rippled at the hem, Disa....the water
Val: An outline of a cat
mep: and the kitty is in the folds of the gown within the curve of the crescent moon - kind of unclear, but there.
mib_dmytcr: Secret Tarot's image reminds me of the elderly Grand Dame who receives seekers needing her blessing.
Web: I see a bird
mep: yes - she's very regal
mep: a bird, Web?
Web: yep
Val: An owl?
Val: I'm managing to morph the kitty into an owl lol
mep: disa - also note the flowing lines that go OVER the crescent moon, as though the dress had turned to water and was spilling over the moon
Web: a soaring bird with it's head up from the place where the moon touching the ground
mep: quite a trick, Val!
mep: web - where the dress "spills over" the moon? is that one of the wings?
Web: that is the tail of the bird i'm seeing
Web: LOL
mep: okay - I can kind of see it.
Disa: well I see the cascading hem- ust doesn't really seem like water
Val: Hmmm.......now I see a mouse under the kitty (mouse looking up)
Web: lol
Web: Next week is the 2 of Cups :)
RWS: Val, Sufi, Mep, Charming
Thoth: Paul
Shining Tribe: Web
Romani: Disa
Druid Craft: Uruviel (Jimi)
Keyword or short meaning for the 2oC
Val: Partnership
mep: New relationship, soulmate, connections
Val: Cooperation
Val: "Like minds"
mep: good one, Val!
Val: :D
Web: STT: Adaptability RWS: Harmony
Disa: partnership for me, and a loving one at that
Disa: but hwat about that mythic?
Whirling_Sufi: Marriage
Val: Healing (RWS Caduceaus sp?))
Disa: opps that's "what"
Charming: Celebration
Uruviel: Like Disa, I think about partnership...of all the various kinds
mep: yes - healing, especially a healing relationship
Web: agree Uruviel
mep: In the Mythic, you really see the difference between the masculine and feminine energies that are being united in the Two of Cups, in general
mep: it's a little more subtle in other decks
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, Uruviel I see marriage as a loving partnership and it could also be marriage of the minds
mep: But yin-yang is also something I see in the 2 of C
Web: Hey Mib, are you Phyllis Mib or another Mib :)
Web: the yin & yang are really expressed in the STT (Shining Tribe Tarot)
mib_39zjxm: Hey Web! It's Phyllis Mib! lol
Uruviel: Exactly, Sufi...
mep: yes they are, Shari
Web: The Thoth as always made me feel like it's a wanna be 3 of Cups, it's lovely
Disa: hiya phyllis mib ;)
Whirling_Sufi: Hey, mib!
mib_39zjxm: Good Morning everyone!!! It's hot! hot! hot!
Charming: hi
mep: Yes, Web - like that lotus at the top (Thoth) is aspiring to become a cup!
Uruviel: Hi Phyllis :)
mib_39zjxm: Herr Bruegel's the MAN!!!
Web: Yep, and the flow seems to be from 1 - 2, which would make it a 2, but I always tend to see the top as one :)
mep: the WILD man!
mep: Yes, Web
Whirling_Sufi: Will the Angel in the Mythic release her?
Web: The Bruegel is funny (of course), puts the stein in the womens had and the wine glass in the mans
Disa: I think he has a cupid's arrow sufi
Whirling_Sufi: Or is he holding her captive to share their cups?
mep: LOL! Good catch, Web!
Web: Maybe Celeste will post her thoughts to the board. The Mythic is her deck of choice :)
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, Disa I did see that as well-but the card is perplexing
mep: Woman: "A stout for me and my friend here will have the Charonnay...."
Val: LOL mep
Web: lol
mib_39zjxm: Hey! Herr Bruegel doesn't mix up the sexes! All for one and one for all. lol
Web: The Romani's is very sweet
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, The Romani is so loving and tender
mep: Yes, for once I like a Romani version of the card! It emphasizes the purity of "new love."
Web: yes! Tender perfect word
Uruviel: The Mythic deck pic is from the myth of eros and psyche...
Web: of just love
Web: *or
Val: Oh, it is sweet. It just hit me that there are kids in the image instead of adults
mep: yes - love without agendas or guile...
Uruviel: She's on the rock in white (for her virginity) bound and awaiting death.
Web: they could be brother & sister
paul: To me the mythic is one of the most obvious allusions. It is Cupid coming to releasehis bride Psyche after his mother Aphrodite tie her up and stuck her on the island. Mama Aphrodite didn't like her son Cupid marrying a mere mortal.
mep: yep - or schoolmates.
mib_39zjxm: My Son drinks wine but only when he's in the kitchen wearing the Rhinestone Cowboy apron and crown! lol
mep: right, Paul.
mep: but the love she bore for Eros was pure - at least in the beginning.
Web: exactly, which plays in very well with the Lovers card
mep: Psyche, I mean, not Aphrodite
mep: LOL, Phyllis!
Uruviel: She's looking off and waiting for that monster to come...but Eros comes and has been assigned to kill her, but pricks his finger on his arrow, and so falls in love with the one he's been sent to kill.
Web: However this is a Two ;)
Web: LOL@Mib
mep: yes a two...we haven't yet reached the maturity (and the complexity) of the love that is in the Lovers (6)
Whirling_Sufi: Whee mib! Fun in the kitchen!
paul: Actually I think Aphrodite thinks she has a monopoly on the best way to love! And she doesn't wait around for no handfasting either!
mep: handfasting, schmandfasting....
Uruviel: I had to go grab my mythic book because,sad to say, I don't remember a lot of the mythology I learned in school.
mib_39zjxm: lol
Web: lol was just going to say that mep!
mep: LOL!
Whirling_Sufi: I have 2 copiesof the Mythic and have not looked at either-time I did!
mep: I've used the Mythic - it's uncanny how its imagery fits so many situations that come up in seekers' questions.
mep: I mean, considering that it only works with a handful of the vast array of myths!
paul: I like to use a mythic from parties, as I can usually keep my readings lite.
mep: I guess archetypes are archetypes, ey?
mep: good thought, Paul. Also, the stories are familiar to many
mep: makes it more accessible, less esoteric
Whirling_Sufi: I need a lite deck for August-hmmm!
Web: I had the Mythic for like 15 years and couldn't ever learn with it
Disa: the Fenestra looks like August to me, and fall
Web: all I could see was the myth, and never really connected it to real life, took the Spiral & RWS for my big bang.
mib_39zjxm: The Mythic image reminds me of the film When a Man Loves a Woman! He can't let her go no matter how bad it is being with her.
paul: does anyone want to give a try on how to explain the flying lion head in the RWS? And is the serpent entwined in staff really necessary and what does it mean in this case?
Web: Well Paul.. it's as necessary as the artist thought it was, and it can mean any number of things to the reader ;)
Web: I tend to see it as the Fire of passion
Web: and the healing between strife
mep: Well, Kliegman (Tarot and the Tree of Life) connects the lion's head to the couple as a symbol of fiery passion that has "erupted" between them. And Pollack (78 Degrees) says that the lion is sexuality and the wings, Spirit.
paul: Yeah well my ready associations are on the blink anybody want to help stoke my fire? That is my associative thinking
mep: Come on baby, stoke his fire....
Web: LOL!
mep: :D
Web: again mep!
Whirling_Sufi: Sandra Thomson says it symbolizes the whole person that each has the potential to becomeif they can grow in the relationship.
mep: GMTA, Shari!
Web: if this card comes up with a lot of fire cards, it can indicate a sexual relationship
mib_39zjxm: I don't know Paul. But with the evil expression in the Lion's eyes, might be those two cups are filled with hemlock! Love is sometimes like slow poisoning. Arsenic and Old Lace drama.
Whirling_Sufi: I always saw it as Stength in the relationship, but I am very open ! LOL
paul: What about the serpent entwined in staff? Is that some kind of discipline?
Web: if it's about people who are not getting along the caduceus of healing show the possibility of that
paul: Yes, arsenic and old lace
Whirling_Sufi: LOL, mib!
paul: thank you that's the word caduceus!
mib_39zjxm: He's reaching for her cup and might be trying to switch cups!
Val: Isn't the caduceus also a symbol of Mercury?
mep: Serpent / Staff (caduceus) is the healing aspects of a relationship
Web: yep I believe your right Val
mep: I think he's reaching for her hand, Phyllis - but then again, I'm a hopeless romantic!
Web: so communication can come into play as well
Whirling_Sufi: It may also be that we are all capable of healing one another or the self
Web: yes! Sufi
paul: I think it has more to do with the God of sleep, and his physician, as sleeping was one of the ways that ancient hospitals attempted to cure disease
Val: Yes, Web, I had that same thought
Web: and that any healthy relationship "should" heal versus hurt
mep: yes - Marcury / Hermes. Came into being when Hermes through his staff on the ground between two fighting snakes, ending their combat. HEALING their relationship,
mep: Mercury, NOT 'Marcury!' LOL!
Val: Ahhhh! I did not know that, mep!
mep: and threw, not "Through" - YIKES my typing!
mib_39zjxm: And to heal, create an immunity, don't you need a bit of the poison itself...A hair of the dog that bit you?
Web: your fingers are just trying to keep up with your brain ;)
paul: yet a little poison can be a good cure.
mep: well, that supposedly heals hangovers, Phyllis! HA! (like from too much stout and Chardonnay in the Bruegel!)
Whirling_Sufi: But , mib this card has such a sacred quality to it!
mib_39zjxm: lol Mep!
mep: LOL at web - impossible task for my arthritic fingers...at least my brain is still spinning, though!
Web: :D
Web: How do you see this card as a 2 in relation to the High Priestess? Or what other Major do you relate the card to numerically?
mib_39zjxm: Joan, isn't there a flip side to the sacred, like the Devil's Temptation?
paul: It seems we have a split between the wicked stepmother and the happily ever after crowd.
Whirling_Sufi: There can be, of course, I just don't feel it in the RWS or the Romani
mep: Well (bear with me, here), I see in the High Priestess the concept of POSSIBILITIES (what is behind that veil, anyhow???) And I also see that in this card...the possibilities of growth that can come from this new relationship.
paul: after all the number two is the first possibility of evil
Disa: hmm
mep: Yes, and it's also the first possibility of EXPANSION.
mep: which can lead to evil, or to great good
Web: For me it's the inner knowing. This card more then even the Lovers indicates love on a level beyond initial emotions. When you know you know. Whether is a lover or a friend. It's an instant connection.
Whirling_Sufi: I like that Mep!
Val: With HP as Keeper of Secrets, 2 Cups could indicate the sharing of secrets.
Disa: instant connection- that works for me web
paul: I think it is a connection that bodes towards growth and development at least in potential
Web: nice Val
mep: I like that this card is a symbol of EQUAL love...Kliegman points out that both the man and the woman (RWS) are wearing victory wreathes, and that they EACH have a cup of his/her own.
Val: :D
mib_39zjxm: I see that too Joan...Sometimes like me when I look for the dark underbelly, I usually find it...Kind of scary in a way.
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, Val, nice
paul: all the quicker to get drunk with
Val: lol Paul
mep: The main difference between them (other than the assumed anatomical ones!) is that the man (masculine energy) is in motion, while the woman (feminine energy) is standing still, receptive.
Web: Spiritually it's about love finding a way (imho)
paul: yes love always finds a way, it's just not necessarily my way
mep: Yes, Web - recognition of a soulmate
Whirling_Sufi: Indeed, Web-lovely!
Web: whether that is to bridge light & dark, male & female, holy & evil
mep: keeper of secrets vs sharing secrets - I like that, Val!
Val: :D
paul: do you really think that the two of cups means a soulmate?
Web: very nice Val, had to scroll as I was typing I missed what you had said
Web: soulmate as in larger world not soulmate as in perfect spouse
mep: Not the cups themselves, Paul. But the meeting of the two figures - and the cups (RWS) are almost being held up in a mutually respecting toast!
Disa: the instant connection could be the recognition of a soulmate, I can see that
mep: right, Web
mib_39zjxm: Somehow I see a connection to the knowledge of a forbidden love. Don't know why either. :s
mep: You've been reading too much Danielle Steele, Phyllis! LOL!
mep: or watching Lifetime movies....
mep: ;)
mib_39zjxm: Never read any of her stuff. Now I'll have to get me a dose of DS!
Web: karmic connection, past life connection, not in one and only "Soulmate"
Disa: cause, Phyllis sometimes the instant recognition IS forbidden-specially if yer already married
mep: right, Web.
Val: I think of an instant connection as recognizing a soul you you shared a past life with (if you're open to the concept of reincarnation)
Disa: right I get ya web
Whirling_Sufi: LOL, Disa!
mep: the recognition of much of ourselves in another
mep: I am, Val, and I agree!
Disa: oh yep I agree Val
paul: I think there may be some esoteric aspirations, as the caduceus intimates. The lion as a Leo means that this love for her shares in the full light of day, here secrets are shared and become a secrets no longer
Val: Like Web states: karmic connection
Web: agree Paul
mep: Good one, Paul
Whirling_Sufi: Very fine, Paul!
Disa: oh that's good- all out in the open
mep: For me, the fact that this is one of the "stage/separation" cards (RWS) means that this duo is kind of lost in a world of their own. They are very tunnel-visioned at this moment, seeing ONLY each other.
paul: that may be what the feeling you're cups might mean, the ecstasy of abandoning the reserve of our discrete lives and joining spiritually in that higher realm where there are no shadows.
mib_39zjxm: Interesting Paul. Under the scrutiny of light there are no secrets. That's no fun! lol
mep: in that atmosphere, the sharing of secrets is easy, because the rest of the world doesn't exist for them at this moment
Val: I read somewhere the lion representing the unborn soul waiting to enter the world thru the union of the couple
paul: Yes except the light itself holds a secrets in its full disclosure
paul: no escaping paradox here
Web: As a two, and in connection to the High Priestess is the spirit, intuition, and also contains the darkness, and for me it can therefore also indicate depression from a relationship, and the healing from that depression. The Mythic shows this imho
mep: Yes. Also the dangers of having just ONE other person be your WHOLE WORLD.
Web: Nice Val
mep: That is a definite form of isolation.
mep: that's kind of cool, Val.
paul: yes Web, I think that this is the beginning of the lifting of depression. And that might be what the card means here
mib_39zjxm: Does a shattering of Innocence become a necessary aspect and somehow fit into this scenario?
Whirling_Sufi: Interesting, Val and a possibility
Val: Oh yeah, I can definitely see a lifting of depression
mep: eventually, Phyllis...but I don't think it's happening quite yet in this card...not in RWS, at least
Disa: oh I don't know if they have to shatter their innocence just yet
paul: but let's consider some of the tasks of psyche, doesn't she need to separate the grain from the straw in the ant's come along and help her do it?
mep: This is the sublime (if fleeting) moment of PERFECTION.
Web: I think it would depend on your definition of innocence
Disa: yep I think that too mep
mib_39zjxm: A surrender of some kind...Independence, control, self-centeredness maybe?
paul: Innocence and perfection seem to go together
mep: too bad neither is very long-lived!
paul: Process and curiosity be the their opposite?
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, Mep-too bad!
Disa: hmm see I just think of it as the very beginning stages of the relationship- it's perfect ust now they can't see the imperfections yet
mep: right, Disa.
Whirling_Sufi: I agree, Disa!
paul: He had a problem with them ecstasy is out of cups, is the hangover the next day
Val: Yes, Disa, I often get that same feeling
mep: Kliegman says, "The Two of Cups is a card often associated with the BEGINNING of relationships, because as they develop it becomes clear that no one on this earth can be our PERFECT counterpart. That is our ideal, but it is not realizable…” in real life.
paul: beginnings often hold unrealistic hopes
mep: don't they just!
Web: I think the STT shows the necessary adjustment for any relationship
Val: Ah, so true, Paul!
paul: that doesn't mean they don't do what they need to do as far as the relationship goes
mep: how so, Shari? STT, I mean?
Web: not that it can't be a beginning, but I would tend to see also as the time of adaptation to the relationship
mib_39zjxm: Paul, this could be the dark underbelly of the unrealistic beginnings of "love."
mep: I like the image of the two streams joining in the larger body of water...
Web: the fish tail to the head so a acceptance to include a part of the other fish
Web: *show
mep: ahh - right
mep: wholeness, completeness.
Web: together they create a space of peace in calm
mep: head-to-toe devotion! LOL!
Web: for themselves
mep: yes
paul: Yes mib, I grok your hard take on love
Disa: haha
Web: peace in a sea of chaos
Disa: we grok from time to time ;)
Val: lol
mep: Also, a "closed circle," Shari - almost. Like they are shutting out others for the time being.
Whirling_Sufi: great word, grok!LOL
mep: GROK!
Web: yes it is closed yet they remain in the main body of water
paul: but consider Pisces connection in Thoth tarot, here that two of cups is definitely a celebration of some sort of comingling
Uruviel: Hi, Tuwikaa. :)
Web: Hi Tuwikaa!
mib_39zjxm: On the Secret image, she looks as if she
Disa: hiya tuwikaa
Whirling_Sufi: Hey, Tuwikaa
Val: Hello Tuwikaa!
mep: With the fish in the STT, there seems to be a Pisces connection there, too
mep: hi Tuwikaa!
Tuwikaa: Hi to all.....
Disa: I was thinking that too mep- STT pisces
mib_39zjxm: she's challenging him to capture her heart. Like Clint
Whirling_Sufi: Yes, Mep-I thought that too
mep: as if she what, Phyllis??? (Secret, I mean...)
mib_39zjxm: Eastwood asking to Make my day...
mep: oh - I'm slow in catching up!
mep: LOL, Phyllis!
paul: yet looks like she might be a vampire in the secret image, and the guy approaching is really a fly about to be sucked dry
Disa: haha is that a pisces trait? challenging them to capture us? :)
Disa: hey Jet
JetAluna: hey :)
Web: I think love has been a part of this card for a long time
Web: Hey Jet!
mep: well, I dunno - but have you ever tried to catch a fish with your bare hands? Slippery little suckers!
Whirling_Sufi: Yeah, paul-she does have that vamp look!
mib_39zjxm: lol Paul! Vampira
mep: Hi, Jet!
Disa: haha mep
Uruviel: Hi, Jet! :)
Whirling_Sufi: Hi, Jet!
Web: lol@Paul
Val: Hello Jet!
mep: wow! What a group we've got here - isn't this GREAT!?!?!
Charming: jet, hi
mep: how are our servers enjoying their new private circuit, Jet?
paul: in Robert Wang's the perfect tarot divination, he claims that the two of cups is adventure with its roots in the hanged man and the magician
mep: good grief, Paul...that seems like a bit of a stretch to me...
Web: From Tarot Wisdom: Element: Water, Sephirah: Hokhmah in Beriah, Pythagorean: Dyad, 10 deg. Cancer ruled by Venus. Any others? What does any of this add to your understanding of the card?
mep: :D
Val: Magician, I can see, Paul (Mercury), how does Hanged Man fit in?
Web: higher power of 2
Web: 12
Val: Ohhhhh!
Val: Thanks Web
mib_39zjxm: Kind of llike that Paul! Roots are always a mysterious cause so much of it happens underground in the dark. Like pressure turns coal into diamonds.
paul: according to Wang its Uranus in cancer
mep: Higher power of 2? 12? how so....(dimwit genes kicking in, here!)
Web: the 2 is to the higher because it's paired with the 1
mep: Sephirah: Chochma (Hokhmah) - wisdom. How can we know if we're wise, in isolation? Or does our wisdom only begin to be realized in relationships?
mib_39zjxm: Isn't Uranus that crazy guy with the wild look in his eyes who invites you out of the hum drum and into bizarre places? lol
Web: taking the numbers as they are and not adding them together
Web: 13=higher power of 3
Whirling_Sufi: Thanks Web and friends-gotta go-sorry-wonderful chat! Bye!
mep: okay...I think I get the 12 - 2 thingie...I need to ponder that a bit.
paul: anyone want to tell me what Hokhmah in Beriah means?
Web: (((Sufi))) Enjoy your Sunday!
Uruviel: LOL, Phyllis. :D
Val: See ya, Sufi (L)
mep: Buy, sufi!
Disa: I'm not getting it either mep
Uruviel: Bye,Sufi...have a great day! ;)
Uruviel: :)
Val: Have a lovely day!
Disa: bye sufi
Web: I can't really
Whirling_Sufi left the room (quit: "If you think nobody cares, try missing a few payments").
Val: Hokhmah in Beriah - no clue
Web: The wisdom to create is the 2
paul: EA got to be careful about those Uranus's never know what comes out of them or where they may lead you
Val: As in, I have no clue
paul: yes no clue sounds good
Web: going from 1 to 2 is creation of something
Web: I don't know nothing about the Sephirah, but that's what I get thinking about Wisdom in Creation :)
Web: doing so with wisdom brings you something more then you had or were
mep: Beriah is considered "Heaven" proper, the first separation from the Divine, and "location" of the Throne of God and archangels. Hochma is the sephira of Widsom.
Val: I see Creation more in 3. The 2 brings in another energy, perhaps needed before the creation can begin
mep: Wisdom
mep: Beriah is one of the "four worlds" of in Kabbalah, Tree of Life
Web: each piece beyond 1 is creations or could be
paul: that's some seriously heady stuff, I think it's time for me to crack open by Garrett Knight
paul: Gareth Knight
Val: lol Paul Same here
mep: So I would say we're looking at divine wisdom here...at least the aspiration to it.
mep: Just my guess!
Web: Venus in Cancer indicates a very sensitive, warm-hearted, protective, affectionate and deeply emotional romantic nature.
Web: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/learn-astrology/venus-in-cancer.php
paul: yes I always knew that your spouse was the dweller on the threshold to being happy
mib_39zjxm: Is there reference being made to the Big Bang of Creation? Definitely acquiring Wisdom or making Friends with her creates a violence of some sort. Might be that Wisdom demands that shattering of Innocence.
mep: Yes, Web - that astrological association certainly fits this card, in my opinion...all the stuff mentioned earlier about the innocence of a new love, a new relationship
Val: Nurturing love (Tarot Awareness - Stephen Sterling)
mep: ooooh - Phyllis! How metaphysical of you, m'dear!
mib_39zjxm: :O
paul: I think the innocence and new love stuff goes back to the tale of psyche, tied up on the island by jealous Aphrodite
mep: yep
Web: Those born in the generation having Uranus in Cancer have the ability to receive intuitively from the planetary mind new emotional states that cause trauma or transformation on a very personal level.
mep: I feel a real sense of TENTATIVENESS in this card....as though this is, literally, a brief moment in time that has been captured in the imagery.
paul: that was some adventure so Wayne was right after all!
mep: But it will not be long-lived.
Web: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/learn-astrology/uranus-in-cancer.php
Web: now the Uranus in Cancer fits nicely with the 2 in water with the High Priestess imho ;)
mep: yep
paul: Yes it brings out the innocence doesn't it. That in order to be wise you need a certain degree of innocence
Web: What do you feel the 2 of Cups could be asking you to release in your life?
mep: "Except ye become as little children..." and so forth
Charming: Attachment
mep: Release dependency.
Val: Or the fear of attachment
paul: I think the two of cups is telling you to dance while you can or eventually you'll get tired
Web: Let go the need to control to partner
mep: Right - come together as EQUALS
JetAluna: controlling the partner would be exhausting anyway...
mep: mutual respect.
mep: Respecting each others' space, too - notice that the couple aren't entwined in a hot embrace here, but each is pretty much holding his/her own ground
Uruviel: Release stubborn independence and allow a partnership to complete my efforts...maybe...if I have to...;)
mep: LOL, Jimi!
Web: What might be a shadow side of the 2oC?
mep: Because of the tentative vibes I get from this card, I think it's also telling you to release worrying about the past and the future, and to live in the present moment
Disa: haha Desperado comes to mind- you better let somebody love you before it's too late
mep: Yeah, Jimi - climb down from your fences!
Val: Shadow is where I see control issues
Uruviel: Becoming so involved with the one other person to the exclusion of others
mep: Shadow side? Expecting too much. Being too idealistic.
mep: Also, shutting out the world for the sake of just one other person...that's never a good thing to do.
Web: the desire for a relationship is overwhelming
JetAluna: placing expectations on the other
Web: too much emotional overflow
Val: Co-dependency
Web: nice one Val
Val: :D
mep: Another shadow aspect might be TOO much independence. Being afraid to come together with someone else.
mep: standing too much apart.
JetAluna: not letting someone "in"
mib_39zjxm: Paul, maintaining a sense of Innocence is in my opinion, is the means to keeping the emotional waters running clear and clean...It's the means to keeping Grace working in your favor on the human psyche on the mundane level. Without Innocence there's threat of losing the gift of Grace that no amount of seeking God's favor can give you more of or replace.
JetAluna: refusing to be vulnerable
mep: good one, Jet
paul: every dish too much baggage in these associations. After all you don't take the whole household on the honeymoon. You pack lightly because you need not wear that much
Web: nice!
Val: Yes, mep, "too much independence" - fear of commitment
Web: I agree Mib
paul: how does the two of cup means fear of commitment? Reverse to maybe
Web: lol@Paul
JetAluna: it's so tough to find a relationship though where there is an equal amount of emotion on both sides
Web: skivvies is good enough
Val: The Shadow, Paul - fear of commitment
JetAluna: its very common to have one person more invested than the other
Web: Shadow, reversal, dark side... ect
Web: Yes Jet very true
JetAluna: so how do we find that balance?
paul: but the flying lion heads is not a shadow image as an invitation to the heavens
mep: well, i can see that the couple (RWS) is standing apart, Paul, as thought they're a bit hesitant to come together, to "commit."
Disa: we don't find it, it finds us ;)
Web: no I see that as a positive
Disa: that's the divine intervention I think
Disa: or the cosmic force
mep: right, Disa - the connection to the Divine that has been created by the initial coming together of two souls
paul: and the Pisces images, as in the shining tribe, where the secret is the two fishes become one fish
Web: yes two become one versus 1 becoming 2
Disa: the potentioal to form the new "thing"
mep: and to fit better on the serving plate - ha!
Val: Ah! NOW I get the STT image
Web: returning to the initial the beginning the adam karendam (spelling wrong)
Disa: ;)
paul: we are in sponing moment
mep: bed of rice...a little chopped fresh parsley... a squeeze of lemon...
mep: (I think I'm getting hungry!)
Val: lol mep
Disa: yikes
Web: What do you think the card might be suggesting that you need to bring into your life?
mep: Partnership
Disa: balance, acceptance
mep: (1st thing that popped into my mind)
Val: Ditto mep
Val: Acceptance
paul: there is an alchemical transformation going on here, perhaps this is the fountain of eternal youth and transformation? Especially in the image of Thoth
Web: compromise on the emotional level
mep: a sense of connection (maintained with a respectful distance, of course)
mep: nice, Web
Charming: Unconditional Love
Web: connection to another takes a form of compromise
mep: live in the moment
paul: I think alchemy suggests more than compromise, and less you happen to be a Republican
Web: yes charming I think that is there as well
mep: LOL, Paul!
mib_39zjxm: Snaps and snails, curls in the middle of her horrid forehead and pound of linguine in clam sauce
Web: lol!
Val: LOL Paul
Web: lol@Mib
mep: Now I AM hungry, Phyllis!
Web: what!
paul: I think if we dine upon the fish in the fountain of eternal youth, we may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak
mep: Something which Bruegel does a lot...
Web: Pythagorean said it was the Dyad, otherness bringing others into your life
mep: wow - heavy
Disa: haha mep
mep: but how do we have "otherness" BEFORE others come into our life?
mep: Unless, of course, one has multiple personalities...
Web: well then you'd still be at 1
paul: Bruegel Tarot does suggest the dance more than the others do
Web: How might you use your card for a meditation or a focus card?
mep: But seriously, is self-awareness a form of otherness? (This is getting very, very deep...)
mep: I think I'll use it to meditate on what I am before "otherness." Or without "otherness."
mep: Seriously
paul: the dyad is the only even evil. I think odds were considered evil and basically unstable, and even numbers were considered civilized
mep: how odd
mep: ;)
Web: I could be Mep if you can perceive something outside yourself you have taken the 1st necessary step towards otherness
mep: yes
paul: we just got the conclusions not necessarily the reasoning
paul: and what kind of reasoning is there a dreams anyway?
mep: seems like "cheating" to me, Paul! LOL!
Web: I would use this card to help me to adapt, and become more inclusive of the ;) otherness
mep: After all, in math class we were always told to "show our work."
mep: Good one, Web...
paul: Yeah but paper was at a premium back them days
Web: to remind myself to find the center of peace within chaos
mep: LOL!
mep: That LOL was for Paul, not for you, Web - I like this meditation of yours...
paul: so they use to write on slates, little blackboards, with chock no doubt
Disa: I would use this card to be more in tune to the fat that two parts make one- and see the value of the other in addition to my own
Disa: oops the fact
mep: Yes, Disa
Val: Focus on accepting a mutual compromise
mep: LOL - I WISH that in "fat" two make one!
Web: lol!
Disa: yep me too mep
Web: Nice Disa
paul: I do hope that when you decide to get hitched Val it's more than a mutual compromise
mep: Yes, Val - meditate on how to find the win-win solution
Disa: sometimes I'm too cuahgt up in compromise that I don't see the indivduality
Uruviel: Currently, I could use it to meditate on how willingness to accept and care for another (actually several others) could bring healing <sigh>
Web: The idea of compromise is also leading me to the idea of letting go and letting be
mep: someone in particular, I take it, Jimi?
paul: I really think compromise is not the meaning of the two of cups
Web: the compromise might just be allowing the partner to be what they are and accepting them anyway
Uruviel: To think of my attitude and the shifts that need to be made in attitude and action.
mep: always wise, Web...
Uruviel: yes, mep, a certain situation
Disa: exactly web
mep: ah
mib_39zjxm: Realistically Love is sacrifice. Giving up a piece of the self for another or others. Then cycles back into letting go of those you love opening the opportunity to finding the Self again in a new way. Hard to explain in words. They keep getting in the way...lol
Web: yep I can see that Uruviel
Val: I agree, Paul, 'compromise' was the only word I could think of
mep: LOL, Phyllis! I see love as expansion, more than sacrifice. The two becoming something more than the sum of its parts.
paul: maybe another way of saying that, mib, is not that love is sacrifice, but suicide. Does the self have to dissolve for there to be room for the other?
mep: YIKES!
Web: yeah Mib sometime text chatting and even voice chatting can't get the thought or idea across
mep: If that's the case, Paul, then GET THEE BEHIND ME LOVE-SATAN!
Disa: yikes no way man
mep: Don't want NO PART OF YA!
Web: yikes is right mep!
Web: I think when that happens Paul it's an unhealthy relationship
paul: Again I really think that compromise is not the best meeting for the two of cups
Disa: self doesn't dissolve- you have to have something to bring to the table
mib_39zjxm: Thanks Paul...You said it much better than I. lol Sometimes religious dogma gets in the way, makes demands that human nature isn't equipped to handle.
paul: I think of it represents an alchemical transformation where each soul undergoes its own metamorphosis to its own needs, but it's own needs now includes the other in a way that makes the cells seem fuller and more fulfilled.
Web: a person should become more then themselves. themselves plus
Val: How 'bout this: Focus on accepting a mutual agreement - even if agreeing to disagree
mep: I agree with that, Paul. Not compromise....acceptance, growth, expansion. Something new and whole made from two "others."
Uruviel: Well, there's the rub for me in my circumstance...how to love and heal when the other one just wants control
mep: right, Web
Web: agree paul
Uruviel: And it's not a relationship I can escape.
Uruviel: At least not at present...
mep: it's all in your own attitude, Jimi. You don't have to CAVE, but you don't have to take control, yourself, either.
Web: well then Uruviel that brings in the release, letting go, and not being tied to their needs
mep: control of them, I mean
mep: right
mep: it is what it is. Acceptance is a form of love.
paul: Val that seems a little tepid, I think I like my bath water hotter, and maybe my relationships too!
mep: And my favorite quote: "Learning to shrug is the beginning of wisdom." (Sarah Ban Breathnach)
Val: lol Paul
Web: the deep breath and release
mep: Yes, but even the hottest bath water cools off eventually, Paul!
Web: nice mep
Disa: well paul I think of compromise meaning- each can still be who they are- doesn't have to mean it's tepid, but accepted by the other
Val: Yeah, it's still a tad weak. Can't seem to find the right words to express that focus
mep: yes, Disa - I agree
mib_39zjxm: Not if you keep the kettle whistling on the stovetop Mep! lol
mep: LOL!
paul: that's a great quote, I think I need to learn to shrug more during tarot readings, I've got the drooling down pretty good
JetAluna: it seems like we're assuming the bath water can only go from hot to cold
Web: finding a place in which to stand together doesn't mean our steps to that place are the same
mep: :D LOL @ Paul
Web: or that we have to follow the same path back
mep: OOOOH - Web - that was GREAT!
Val: Ooooo, I like that, Web
JetAluna: what if we had one of them new fangled tankless water heaters? ;)
Disa: or that we move at the same pace
Disa: newfangled ;)
Web: :)
Web: I want wanna them!
paul: no I'm perfectly capable of turning the faucet on
Tuwikaa: fulfill ~ satisfy each other
Web: yes
Uruviel: Well, I don't think it's *all* in my own attitude...the other person is into manipulation, power, and control...and I have to work with this person whether I like it or not...and she's pretty happy with her methods...but it's eating at me...
paul: I think this is the promise of fulfillment rather than its culmination
Web: well even with the new fangled you turn the tap on, you just don't keep heated water while it isn't necessary
Uruviel: So if the other isn't willing to 2oC with ya, does it do any good?
paul: after all it's only the two of cups not the 10
mep: I think one of the miracles of perfect, innocent love (even the Platonic kind) is that two who were essentially already complete in and of themselves come together in a brand NEW kind of completeness.
Web: it can do good for you Uruviel
mep: Jimi - you can only control your OWN cup.
Disa: exactly mep
mep: Promise of fulfillment, Paul....I like that
Uruviel: Even if she's still messin' with my cup?
Disa: don't let her mess with yer cup jimi
paul: I don't know about controlling your old cup but I certainly understand drinking from it
Web: you may not find the harmony of the 2oC, but you may be able to find some of the love/joy
mep: LOL! Well, I think you're justified in protecting your own cup!
Web: Next week is the 2 of Wands, don't forget if you want to switch decks pop me off an email webweaver@tarotforlife.com
Web: Great chat everyone!